Playing in the intimate surroundings of The Swan Theatre the production is now running until Sunday 19th January 2025. Directed by Kimberley Rampersad (Associate Artistic Director of the Shaw Festival, Canada) in her RSC debut, The Red Shoes is both wickedly funny and a cautionary tale of pride, vanity, and how we all deserve to dance how we wish to dance.
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| Dianne Pilkington as Mariella. Photo by Manuel Harlan. |
Dianne Pilkington takes on the role of Mariella Nugent. She describes Mariela as a complex blend of vanity and social climbing, contrasting with the mentor-like Mags. Dianne emphasises the importance of maintaining the story's original dark elements while adding humour. She reflects on her career, highlighting the importance of learning from diverse experiences and the impact of the pandemic on her passion for theatre. We also couldn't not talk her cameo in the upcoming Wicked movie.
What can you tell me about the play and your role as Mariella?
I think the show is so beautifully dark. I'm really proud of what we've all collectively achieved particularly our director Kimberley Rampersad. As she said herself she wanted to tell the story without de-fanging it. It is pitched as a family show with the caveat that younger children might need to not come.
The original fairy tale is incredibly dark as they all are. The original The Little Mermaid is way darker than the Disney version, Cinderella with the whole chopping off of the toes. What we are most proud of is that it's a piece with definite claws. We are telling the exact story as it was written just in a completely different way with a little tongue-in-cheek humour.
Where Mariella comes into it. In the fairy tale, there is an old woman who takes Karen in. I think that character has been split to have Mariella who is the epitome of vanity and social climbing and Mags who is the mentor and earthly wise woman. They have very clearly split that character, the person who takes that person Karen in and becomes the mother figure. Mariella gets to be everything awful which I love. I seem to be moving firmly into my Wicked Witch or Stepmother era!
I read the script and I loved her. Nancy has written an Irish play, when I read it the way it was written it was so clearly filled with Irish-isms that I suddenly remembered some of the ladies I grew up with up North. I remembered this heightened posh Liverpool, I went to school quite near Liverpool, and these women were very very proud and passive-aggressive. The Liverpool accent, when something is written in a very Irish way really helps with that. It has the same musicality, it has the same sort of off-the-cuff commentary. It seemed to work.
From my perspective even though the character is very heightened and very much the wicked stepmother figure I wanted her to be a real person. I definitely know these people! I've grown up with them, I've lived with them, I've known them. I wanted her to be real. She says and does some awful things but I truly believe she's doing it with the best intentions.
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| The cast of The Red Shoes. Photo by Manuel Harlan |
Do you think she does have those good intentions?
I don't think her intentions change. We didn't want her to have an epiphany and to get off the hook. She's behaved badly, she's been incredibly narcissistic and cruel. From her perspective, I like to think of her like the Witch in Into the Woods she says "I'm the Witch, I'm the one no-one believes". She is the only one telling the truth in her opinion. She is the only one trying to warn Karen.
We talked about her having lived a life where she has had to conform to certain rules. The way that women do, certainly of a certain period or age group. That's the perspective I've tried to come from. She is essentially trying to steer Karen in a path that she thinks is the safe one. Whether you think that is right or wrong, from her perspective she is not trying to be cruel she is trying to keep her safe. I have my own opinions about the right way to raise children and that's not my personal perspective on how you should raise children.
I think that was the intention of the original fairy tale, to warn children to not shine too brightly, especially young women, do not draw intentions to yourself because something bad might happen to you. That's not a modern perspective, we don't have that attitude anymore but it is still there lurking around. I think Mariella is doing her best in the way that she sees it.
What is your creative process like for a role like this?
Going up for something like this you have to be quite bold and make some decisions quite quickly. Certainly, with the Scouse accent that felt like something I could sit in comfortably, that would be an offering that I could do and that informed an awful lot from the beginning and luckily Kimberley was on board with that.
I heard Kimberley giving a Q and A the other day and it was quite interesting. She said some people like to work from the inside out and others from the outside in. I think often with musicals, and I've done mostly musicals, we do work from the outside in and Kimberley likes to put the framework up and then find the details. That is a process I'm familiar with and comfortable with. I've done both but that is the norm for musicals by necessity you put them on stage, you put them up, you get them on their feet and then you do the detailed work within the framework. As opposed to talking about it for three weeks and then trying to put something on its feet that is impossible because it's too complicated.
The way that this play has evolved is very technical. It needed to have the framework before we could do the detailed work. Luckily we had a similar process in that way. Kimberley has given us a lot of free reign to discover things for ourselves. She is very clever if you do something she likes she will tell you what you've done and often that is something that has happened by accident that has happened in the moment that has worked. You might forget about it and it doesn't happen again but she is very good at pinpointing things. She has given us a lot of leeway whilst gently steering us. I've really enjoyed watching her direct other people, watching her give notes helped me to just go with whatever she wanted.
How do you pitch the role so that you're not going too far over the top with it?
That's the big burning question!
My tendency is to keep pushing and trying to find more and see how far I can go with things. Sometimes that can go too far, not because of anything negative just to help you find the point. At some point, you will go over that line. I am always very clear with the people I work with that I will keep trying to find things and keep adding and exploring and if at any point I get to to place where it's not part of the character anymore please tell me. This gives me a license and freedom to try things whilst knowing I'm in safe hands with somebody who will go "I think you've probably gone to a place that we don't need to go to". With something like this, it has to be a character that is both larger than life and real. I always come back to the fact that I know plenty of people who are like Mariella who will say the things that she will say or do the awful thing that she will do with absolutely no awareness whatsoever. I try to remember these people exist and focus on that. As soon as something happens that I'm doing things for Dianne and not Mariella that's when we take things out. If it's just to satisfy me then it's not right.
Does the humour help keep you grounded in it?
I hope so. It is an incredibly dark story, but there is so much beauty in the piece. Nikki Cheung who plays Karen is just gorgeous. It is such a wonderful company, everybody is working together so beautifully. There's a very supportive atmosphere.
You have to temper that kind of thing with some kind of sharp humour otherwise it becomes sentimental. You could tell the story in another way that could be quite sentimental and that would be a version of it. I don't think that is what any of us wanted to do. There was an agreement from early on that we weren't there for sentiment and we were going to tell it in a very unsentimental way. It's all there in Nancy's writing. She has a very dry and dark sense of humour, it's all there on the page. It enables you to do more awful things and get away with it. When you provide the audience the opportunity to laugh at it, otherwise it would be a very distressing story.
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| Dianne Pilkington as Mariella and James Doherty as Bob. Photo by Manuel Harlan |
What is it like when you see the wardrobe and costumes for the first time?
We were given sketches on the very first day which is really helpful. You can then imagine how someone might move. Someone told me when I was doing Glinda that you don't have to work so hard because look at you. There's an awful lot of work that has been done before you have opened your mouth and I remember thinking god that's really unsatisfying because I like to work hard and want to do it.
Mariella's wardrobe is exquisite and completely over the top. If you add too much on top of that in the way of movement and physically characterise somebody it can clash against how you look. Knowing what you are going to look like is really important. I always rehearse in the shoes I am going to be wearing or something similar. Stuff like that can change your voice, it can change everything, it changes the way you walk and it's a very simple quick into something.
Having the costumes sketches up around the room, not just seeing what you are wearing but what everyone else is going to look like. The costumes were exactly the way they were sketched. That doesn't always happen when you see a sketch and then get something that is nothing like what you thought it would look like! You could see immediately that it had a Tim Burtoneqsue feel to it, very lush but the colours are a little more vibrant. It is slightly more extraordinary and that gives you more of an idea of who these people are.
The design for the show is really beautiful. Colin Richmond has done the most incredible job. From start to finish it looks rather intense and fabulous. The costume fairy has been rather nice to me this time because I've got some really nice frocks in my favourite colour green.
You've mentioned the design and the set, I must ask you about the giant painting of yourself and James Doherty as your husband Bob. What was it like getting to see that for the first time?
We had the box model and talked about that and were told there is going to be a huge painting. I thought at first they were joking. I thought it was more a concept and idea so that's an image in my head for me. I didn't think there would be a giant painting.
In week three of rehearsals. We had a set piece for the mirror and the painting just representing them and there was this little A4 printout of this photo and I was like what and they were like yeah that's going to be the photo. I sent it to my Dad who is an artist and he is utterly furious because he's like if they can do that now with AI there's no point! Love that painting, I think Paddy (James) and I are going to fight each other for it at the end.
The set is quite atmospheric, what was it like bringing what you've learned in the rehearsal room onto the set for the first time?
We rehearsed in Clapham at the RSC buildings. I'm SO thrilled that I'm working at the RSC.
We worked in this very bright rehearsal room and all of a sudden we turned up at the beautiful Swan Theatre and it was all dark red and dimly lit and fantastically lit. We'd seen the pictures but you don't know until you get there. It's utterly terrifying because all of the things that were mapped out on the rehearsal room floor very kindly and lovingly by the RSC stage management don't feel at all like that because there's a wall in the way that you've not taken into consideration.
On the thrust stage, you've got the little vom entrances which in my mind were flat but they are actually raised and I'm like okay I'm going to fall off that at some point! Terrifying but so exciting because it looks so creepy and right for what we created and you suddenly realise how close the people in the stalls are to you.
Kimberley was like you can catch someone's eye and invite them in and then you suddenly find people are there. It's the kids that want to catch your eye, the grownups don't, nobody wants to catch Mariella's eye. It takes a brave person to sit on that front row! For me, I have a fear of audience participation and considering I perform, yet I feel if I were watching this show and were included by the character Sylvester in that way then I would be okay with it. It's meant to challenge and make you afraid, as opposed to in a panto it's meant to be an enjoyable experience - well it wouldn't be for me!
Poor Seb (Sebastian Torkia) has to go straight out there from the get-go and get in people's faces. We get to warm up and scout the audience and find the people who might be up for it. It's usually the kids that want to be part of it.
You've played a lot of comedic roles and now as you mentioned more wicked roles, how much do you enjoy the variety?
It's really fun. The jury's out on whether that Glinda is a good or bad witch so I guess I played bad witches early on. There is something infinitely more satisfying in playing flawed people as they are the most interesting characters. Even when I was at the beginning of my career when I was playing the girlfriend-type characters, I always wanted to find the flaw in the seemingly put-together people. That's when you find someone more human and satisfying for me and hopefully for the audience. Those flaws have become more numerous as I get older and now I'm playing the ultimate flawed character.
It's been interesting tipping into people who are essentially not very nice, with those people I try and find the kindness so you do the opposite thing, you look for the good in them. Even Mariella has generosity in there somewhere!
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| The cast of The Red Shoes. Photo by Manuel Harlan. |
If you were to wear a pair of cursed shoes, what kind of shoes would you like to be cursed with?
Flat ones! Converse that I would like to be wearing and I say that with love because all my shoes are so high in the show. I did say put me in high heels as I'm going to need them but wow my feet are killing me, I feel like I am wearing cursed shoes!
I wish I could do what Nikki does, doing the whole ballet going on pointe thing. Who came up with that? I really need to look that up because it's really awful but beautiful.
I'm a flat shes girl all the way. Any chance I get to put a flat trainer on that would be me so if they were going to be cursed they'd at least be comfy.
How do you reflect on your career up to this point?
I've been fairly fortunate that my career has been fairly linear. Nothing happened too quickly or too soon. I did the understudying and learned an awful lot from that. Then gradually got little parts in things and grew from there.
I've been so fortunate to work with such a varied group of people, from amazing comedians and real big stars of stage and screen. It's wonderful to watch people from different avenues of the same industry and how they approach things. If you watch and listen you can learn so much from the little things that they do and the way they respond to audiences.
What I'm finding now as one of the older members of the company is that some of the young people that are coming out of colleges have an amazing technical knowledge of how the voice and their bodies work. It's really important to pay attention to the experienced people but also the people who are just out of college. I look at Joseph (Edwards) who plays my son in the show and he is incredible. His focus is second to none and the way he approaches everything is really brilliant. I think techniques change and evolve and it's good to stay up with that.
I couldn't talk to you and not mention the Wicked movies which are about to be released. It's listed in the programme in your credits that you are part of it. How excited are you for it to come out?
I am not in the first movie, so don't expect to see me this November. I was very fortunate to do a little cameo so I'm really chuffed. It was a huge part of my life and I know we all feel quite similarly about it. I got to meet some incredible people and think it is going to be extraordinary from what I've seen. Ariana Grande is going to be stunning as Glinda. I can not wait. I'm very much looking forward to seeing it, I think I'll take my son and do a quiet family trip.
What is it like when you have such a connection to something to a role to then see it reach this stage?
I loved the book. I read the book and just loved it. I have always been obsessed with anything Wizard of Oz like a lot of people but truly obsessed. I lost count of the amount of Ruby Slippers I've got.
I then listened to the musical that had come out. At that time I was like I need to play Elphaba and that was before I'd started doing comedy of anything and hadn't moved into that side of things. I nearly ruptured my vocal chords trying to sing Defying Gravity in my kitchen for a year or so. But by the time it came over I was fully on board with the idea of playing Glinda. I desperately wanted to do it. It was a long time coming and a big leap forward for me career-wise. Such a great character and the first time I'd been given a character with really obvious flaws that you really explore. 3 years I must have loved it. I didn't want to leave.
It was a joyful time and I was very lucky who I got to work with. It was just one of those iconic roles, those words are overused but they really are iconic roles. They were created by two very amazing people originally and what I love now is there is such a varied array of versions. It could easily become a franchise where everyone is just the same and it hasn't and that is a real achievement with something like Wicked which is a BIG franchise.
I still go back and I cry. I'm going to embarrass my son in the cinema, aren't I?
If you were stranded on a desert island but could take three musical theatre soundtracks with you, what would you take?
I'd have to take Sweeney Todd, I love Sweeney Todd. Maybe Mack and Mabel and South Pacific just for a classic.
What keeps you inspired?
I don't think I could stop if I tried. I was having this conversation with Paddy who plays my husband in the show and we were saying we hope the audience doesn't give up on me but I don't think I could ever give up on it. If I can carry on working for the rest of my life I would be thrilled.There are plenty of grandma parts out there!
Nothing made that more clear than the pandemic when everything had shut down. I had just finished a contract with Only Fools and Horses The Musical and was planning to take a few months off because I have a family and it's hard on family life. I wanted to give some time to my son. What I didn't anticipate was that everything would close and how anxious that would make me. It is so much of the person I am and it's always been the place that I feel most comfortable.
I genuinely love theatre. It's always been a place for me that was inclusive and safe in the nicest most possible way of safe. Somewhere you can go and be yourself and people are more accepting of any idiosyncrasies you may have. It's my happy place and it was really clear to me when everything closed down. I got terribly anxious around that time. Not necessarily about the thing that everyone was anxious about. I was worrying that I would never go into a theatre again. I couldn't see how they were going to open up theatres and it made me so depressed. I can't imagine life without doing theatre.
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| Dianne Pilkington as Mariella and Sakuntala Ramanee as Mags. Photo by Manuel Harlan |
What would you hope an audience member takes away from seeing The Red Shoes?
I hope they are entertained because essentially it is entertainment regardless of how dark it is and regardless of whether there's a moral or not it should always be something that has entertained.
On a grown-up level, I hope it provokes a bit of thought about the way we treat women and how women are allowed to step into the light and be noticed and how judged they are when they do that and for me, that is the story we are telling. Within a hopefully enjoyable, moving, fun couple of hours. The story for me is this is what we do to young women. We either stamp all over them and tell them not to stand out and they have to conform or we let them stand out and then tear them down. I think that the serious element to it. I hope that message comes through. I don't think we fix it or solve it and I don't think we try to but its always good to question that.
The Red Shoes plays at the Royal Shakespeare Company until Sunday 19th January 2025. Tickets are available from https://www.rsc.org.uk/
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